The Lifestyle CEO

Why Return to Office Mandates Are Failing Women | The Hidden Cost of 9-5 Culture

• Christina Gough & Dr Katie Stirling • Season 4 • Episode 11

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As companies push for return-to-office mandates, Clinical Psychologist Katie and Marketing Expert Christina expose the real impact on women's careers and mental wellbeing.

In this episode, we dive deep into:

  • The true cost of inflexible work policies on women
  • Why carrying the mental load makes workplace transitions harder
  • How traditional 9-5 culture ignores individual productivity patterns
  • The gap between corporate policies and real-life demands
  • Why women are natural organizers (and how companies can leverage this)
  • The myth of micromanagement and productivity
  • Creating workplace systems that actually work for women

Drawing from real experiences and professional insights, this episode challenges traditional workplace structures and offers a fresh perspective on creating environments where women can truly thrive.

Perfect for professional women navigating workplace changes, leaders designing flexible policies, and anyone interested in creating more inclusive work environments.

Website: www.lifestyleceo.co.uk
Instagram: @thelifestyleceo.podcast
Christina: @itschristinagough
Katie: @drkatiestarling
TikTok: @thelifestyleceo.podcast

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Lifestyle CEO, a community designed for women looking to take their life into their own hands and redefine what success looks like for them. I'm Katie a clinical psychologist and couple therapist, I'm passionate about connecting you with the tools you need to create the life and relationship you want, and I'm Christina, a marketing and business expert who has built her life around giving herself and those around her the ability to choose what their lifestyle looks like for them.

Speaker 2:

Together, we have created the podcast for women just like us who are looking to redefine what success looks like for them and enjoy a lifestyle that they love. Hi everyone, Hello.

Speaker 3:

Another episode being filmed from different sides of the world?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I was about to say good morning to you because I'm here with my coffee, because it's early morning in australia but it's late night in the uk, so good evening okay so I've got my water whoop, whoop.

Speaker 3:

Um, yeah, it's been really interesting being back in the uk. You know, obviously I I kind of are mainly in the marketing world over here, um, and a lot of stuff kicked off in the marketing press, but mainly the some of the national press as well, because obviously a lot of people are doing like return to office mandates. Um, yeah, and it's really interesting being back in the thick of it because I mean, obviously the news I see is very much uk-based businesses, but I'm sure it's really interesting being back in the thick of it because I mean, obviously the news I see is very much UK-based businesses, but I'm sure it's happening all over the world, um, obviously, amazon being an example from last year um but yeah, and I think just living back in the UK and really experiencing that kind of nine to five culture and just the, the pressure it puts on people to you know, it is insane, like I feel, like I've I mean, I haven't really been in a nine to five job since well, I mean I guess how old well, about eight years I guess, but obviously then just

Speaker 3:

ask how old you are, I was gonna say how old am I? But then I was like like wait, how old is formation? But yeah, so like eight years, and I think it's just been very interesting coming back to it and then obviously, seeing companies kind of forcing people to come into the office four or five days a week and just looking into actually how much pressure that puts on people, especially women. It's just so fascinating to me that this is still happening in this day and age, to be honest.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's interesting. So during COVID, I think you know, obviously initially we saw a lot of challenges for women in the workplace and there was actually a mass exodus from the workplace and obviously a large amount of that was due to lockdown and children being schooled at home and really that mental load falling on women in the home and taking care of childcare arrangements.

Speaker 1:

So we did see that in Max Estes.

Speaker 2:

But then we saw women come back to the workplace and we saw a lot of positive shifts for women around flexibility and really their ability to manage both their private and work life in a way that was much more achievable for them. That was much more enjoyable for them. And unfortunately, now we're starting to see some of these shifts back the other way, where it's becoming mandated to go back in the workplace full time for many people.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I mean there is so many interesting arguments to and for, like before and against, and there's so many different ways that companies are trying to approach it and I do understand like it is a really tricky thing to navigate, both for employees and employers, because you know there is a certain level of trust that goes into employees that work from home and I'm obviously not suggesting that people aren't able to be like responsible, but there are, I'm sure, people that take that, you know, for granted or whatever, and you know, maybe don't fulfill their roles, but I'm sure those would be weeded out pretty quickly anyway.

Speaker 3:

But then I think there's a really interesting conversation I saw, especially around women, about how this working from home movement is actually further removing women from the right seats at the right tables and the right networks, and I do really agree with that.

Speaker 3:

To be honest, I think you know, traditionally this has been a real issue for women, especially when they get to like childbearing age, where they have to take a step back from their career and they tend to then be looked over for promotions, blah, blah, blah. And obviously the more they're then removed from the workplace, even more, the less likely they are to be sort of recognized in building the networks and things that we do unfortunately need to proceed and I just think there must be a different way to ensure people and women or whoever, are still getting those opportunities, but that it's not forcing them into a structure that they just cannot live by anymore, Like the amount of pressure we have on ourselves to do all of these things in life. It just we can't kind of fit into this nine to five structure anymore. I don't think.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and you raise a really important point there, because there are benefits to being physically located in a workplace and you know, another benefit I can see is also that connection, you know can be really important in terms of not feeling isolated, being connected with peers, the creativity that comes with that and, of course, all those considerations that you raised in terms of the workplace itself. But I think the key here is that you know we go too far, to one extreme. So it is about creating systems that allow for individual circumstances and individual needs and create and allow flexibility within that, because when we're talking about this from the workplace's perspective.

Speaker 2:

Obviously the goal is productivity. The workplace's perspective obviously the goal is productivity. Yeah, is to making sure that we're still maintaining work productivity. That's really important. Um, but it is about do we have the systems to support that? And of course, you know you raise the point of are people doing what they're supposed to be doing? So there's that trust element. But when you have the right systems in place and when you're not focused on just the hours someone's doing versus the output, yeah, you're not so worried about trying to monitor every minute down to the second of like what key tasks they're doing and you can more focus on the output.

Speaker 2:

If that output is achieved, then we can enable more flexibility in the way that that is achieved and have more balance between those tasks that do need to be achieved face to face and those that don't.

Speaker 3:

For sure, yeah, and I think, again, it kind of comes back to what we always talk about, which is being able to design a life on your terms, and that doesn't actually have to be about starting your own business, although obviously it makes things a lot easier. It is about sort of deciding what works for you and then perhaps having a conversation with your employer and, you know both coming to an agreement about what needs to be achieved within it, but actually managing to set that structure in a way that suits both of you, and I think I'm hoping that, you know, perhaps employers are just more open to those conversations now. Conversations now, I certainly think people are putting very interesting like benefit packages together, policies together to support people, you know, perhaps doing different structure in the working day. So, although you have to be in the office a certain amount of week, you can do it within core hours or something like.

Speaker 3:

There is a lot of, there's a lot of different ways to approach it, and I just don't think it needs to be a one size fits all for sure, because, again, if you do work in production or in a factory, then, yes, outputs are really important and the more time you put in, you tend to have more outputs, but actually we're not in that industrial era anymore where that is the case for most businesses. Most people are working a desk, desk job where number of hours doesn't necessarily equal more productive. In fact, it probably comes down a lot the more hours you do, um. So it's just taking a look at that and maybe kind of updating our society for this new way of working where we're kind of more in the technological revolution or whatever. Um. So yeah, and I just think it's interesting about just looking at the ways different companies are approaching this now, especially post-COVID, and I just think it just brings up so many interesting conversations that people need to be having.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and I think the key that you're raising there is like really understanding that individual person and the way that they work best Because if we are looking to achieve higher productivity, we all have, we're all more productive at different times in the day, for example, for sure, if you're a morning person versus if you're a late night person. So some people work best late at night and some people work best early in the morning. And also in terms of lifestyle sometimes you know what works best for one person doesn't work well for another person. So it is about, I think, the more that we can give people flexibility and then, obviously, from the workplace perspective, with having those systems in place to make sure that that productivity or those goals are achieved, we actually enable them to work in a way that's more productive for them and for the workplace.

Speaker 3:

For sure, and I think you know this is why I've always really enjoyed working with freelancers.

Speaker 3:

Obviously, this was something I've had as my kind of vision even before COVID, but I just felt like there was a way to kind of give freelancers access to some of those cultural benefits from an office by making a bit more of a community but still giving them the autonomy, the flexibility, whatever they needed to make sure they can do their best work but also have, you know, a life that actually worked for them as well.

Speaker 3:

And I think I mean it's obviously the answer isn't for everyone to go freelance, but definitely taking some of the learnings of. Like freelancers tend to be very self kind of driven anyway, so they're very good at achieving their goals, being organized, and it's sort of like looking at those skills and how can we replicate those systems in a workplace where people are obviously employed? But like what, what skills do people need to do a good job managing their life? I think that's maybe one of the key skills that we need to look for when we're employing people as well, rather than just like what skills can you bring to the job role, for example?

Speaker 2:

I love that. Oh my gosh, what's happening to my voice right now? I feel like I'm losing my voice. Sorry about that, guys. I'm very croaky here, so hopefully that's a fitting spot for you.

Speaker 2:

But I love what you're talking about because it's really about the idea of bringing the learnings that we have from when it is working and applying that to the workplace. I think also we do need to recognize that. You know, as you said, when we're talking about freelancers, there's a high level of self-motivation, there's a certain personality type, I would say for someone who has their own business or who you know is striving towards achieving particular goals.

Speaker 2:

that may not be everyone in a workplace setting, so it is about recognizing that. You know, if we do have work from home, some people will need really key organization systems in place, for example, to help them get organized. For some people they will need, you know, more check-ins on task achievement or progress, whereas other people won't need that. And I think the issue comes in with bigger organizations when we try and adopt a policy for everyone rather than looking at what does this individual need, you know, and it's the same when we come down to a work plan, like we're tailoring that to an individual. So it's really about you know how do we support this individual to meet their work and their life goals but also like how do we keep them on track?

Speaker 2:

So is this someone who is highly motivated, who is highly organized, who has the color-coded calendar system for themselves? They don't need another layer of organization. They might need something else. But for that person, maybe they need some help with setting that up and getting themselves into a structure for working from home. But I think the issue lies with when we sort of say everyone needs this or this is the process for everyone. It's about how do we create systems that enable flexibility, systems that can give us those checks and balances but also allow us to cater to the individual needs.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I really like that actually, and I do think that's the world we're moving into. Now it's so much more. You can't just have a one size fits all policy or one size fits all benefit system, because one you have so many different people within the workforce, right, and also I mean you always had that. But now more than ever, I think there's more niches that are required in terms of what do people actually need from their day-to-day kind of flexibility? What do people actually need from their day-to-day kind of flexibility?

Speaker 3:

Um, and I guess it is. You know, it seems like a big task, I guess, for like whoever, like an HR director or something, to take an individual and look at sort of doing that for each person, but I think they can be, yeah, like you say, like systems around it and then working with that individual, and then I feel like that would like increase talent retention, talent acquisition, like you would just feel much more fulfilled in your job, because people are actually listening to what you want from your life, not just what they want from you in your job. Um, and I do think that's the sort of stuff we'll probably start seeing, I hope, um, I think we complicate that too, though.

Speaker 2:

you know, when we talk about individualized, everyone kind of freaks out. It's like oh, in an organizational perspective, I've got a thousand employees, I've got to develop an individual plan for everyone.

Speaker 2:

And it's not really about that. It's about saying, okay, we have these systems for the organization. Let's have like a one hour meeting about does that system work for this individual? Do we adapt things? How do? How do we increase productivity at this individual level? How do we meet the individual needs? It's actually not that hard. Like you totally over complicate these things, because when you work with someone, you know them right, like even if you haven't studied personality types or you know you don't understand, yeah, that those terms you sort of know in your team which are the people that you need to check in on more, which are the people that you can kind of you know have an overarching goal and they will develop their own work plan for that. So you kind of I think you know more than you think you know about developing an individual plan. I think we sometimes those decisions are driven by fear as opposed to reality.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I actually love that and I just think I just it's been such an interesting thing to look at over the last well, however many years since COVID and, I think, companies it's really interesting looking at the companies who are announcing these like return to work, and like what type of companies they are versus, you know, the smaller startups and how they're approaching it, and it's always like this where I guess they can be a bit more agile. But I just love looking at the different policies. It sounds like I've spent my whole life looking at HR policies.

Speaker 2:

I don't you probably do this is. This is the thing you do in your downtime, isn't it? Christina Read HR policies.

Speaker 3:

The whole point is like I think there's so many benefits of working in an office and having colleagues you go to work with every day Like my fondest memories of working in an office and having that, like I've had still got some of the best friends from when I used to work for a company and like just love that social aspect and you know there's so many benefits to it.

Speaker 3:

Basically, and I think the gap between being a standalone freelancer and working in an office, there's this kind of chasm of missing cultural aspects basically, which is again where one of the gaps that can be filled. It's like actually finding a community that you can maybe be a part of or, you know, just being a bit more so. It's sort of taking the best of both worlds and finding something that's in the middle, basically, of like between working on your own or setting up your own company and working for a corporate or whatever. Um, and I just love that there is sort of things like this popping up all over the place that just kind of again, it's giving people a bit more flexibility to choose what aspects they want for their life and design it around their terms.

Speaker 2:

Mm, hmm, and I think you know, I think we've got to raise, like, the important point for women here, which is the mental load. You know, women carry an enormous mental load in life and there is research to back that. So it's not just a blanket statement that we're making that women carry this mental load. There's research that supports that women generally carry the mental load in a relationship, carry the mental load in a relationship. So, whether that, be that you have children or not, women tend to do more of the organizational tasks, the emotional load tasks, and essentially we're thinking about work terms of the project managers at home. So when we have these enormous shifts, they do impact women far more than they do impact men, because you know we're talking I think last time about the idea of transitions and even just that transition, there's a whole bunch of steps that needs to be managed in terms of childcare and household duties and how that will shift and that all falls to the woman.

Speaker 2:

You know generally not saying in all relationships, but generally it will fall to the women or women in the household. So I think when we're thinking about these things, we do really need to consider the impact that it will have on women and the skills that we may lose in our workplace if we can't build systems that allow that flexibility and allow women to really, you know, work in ways that work for them and their individual setting, and I think sometimes we can jump to quick fix solutions.

Speaker 2:

So I did see, you know, something I was reading about about some of this was around you know, we need to have childcare in the workplace was, like, you know, the big answer. And having childcare in the workplace, I'm like, okay, that's great, but you know that's for the first. However many years, and then we go into kinder or what you call. What do you call kinder?

Speaker 3:

Nursery, nursery or reception.

Speaker 2:

Or into school. So what happens when we have school-aged children, and even with child care arrangement? Like some, people prefer not to put their children in child care. So there's a whole bunch of things that get oversimplified, and I think it is about recognizing that women are great organizers.

Speaker 3:

This is why they carry the mental load unfortunately.

Speaker 2:

But the flip side of that is that they are really good at knowing their own situations, knowing how to manage it, knowing how to get the best out of themselves and those around them, how to manage it, knowing how to get the best out of themselves and those around them. So we need to have those opportunities for women to be able to work in ways that work for them and their families. And sometimes that is going to look very different for every person and even it changes over time. You know, I know myself right now, if I was working in a traditional workplace setting a key time I would really need, once Archie starts kinder, is to be there around that kinder time, and it's not just the kinder drop off. So you know we're going through a bit of separation anxiety.

Speaker 2:

So there's a high emotional load for me around those struggles and if I was then forced to jump straight into work, going from that, driving straight in and jumping into a meeting or, for me, therapy, which I just wouldn't do, couldn't be able to represent.

Speaker 2:

You know it's just not effective. So it's much better for me to get up. Well, I do get up earlier, do an hour before the kids are up and then go in an hour later. You know you would get an hour before the kids are up and then go in an hour later. You know you would get much higher productivity levels from me than you would forcing me to go in that first hour because that first hour I'm going to be switched off. That's the reality is that we can create set times around things, but you can't force people into a productivity state if they're not there. You know. If they're coming from something else and they need some time to transition, that's going to happen, no matter what you do, no matter what time you get them to clock on. So you're sort of better actually to allow them that flexibility to say, hey, this is what works for me. I can get up, I can do this hour before I come in and I'll be in an hour later.

Speaker 3:

But when I'm there, I'm there and I'm present and I'm ready to go. I really like that, actually, and I think there's a big piece there which again comes back to the individual, about really understanding themselves, and I don't think we necessarily give people the time to figure that out as well. We kind of tell people what they should do and then you either feel incredibly stressed because you can't do that or you're kind of running, you know, on just trying to keep up with everything, all the demands, and then eventually just become burnt out anyway. And I really like that idea of just being able to say you know, what do you really need? And like how can we make this work around what your schedule is? And it's not like, oh well, I want to stay up to 1 am gaming. So I mean it could be.

Speaker 2:

I guess, but not like, oh well, I want to stay up to 1am gaming, so, or what do I mean? It could be, I guess, but you know, that's you know, that's also okay like. I think that we have to accept that this isn't just like I think that we can oversimplify things and it's just about child care, but it's not.

Speaker 2:

It's about lifestyle choices. It is about you know if that person, what's important to that person, is walking their dog at a certain time, yeah, or watching live music at night, or getting to the gym. All those things are important and all those things contribute to productivity, because when we are at our best, that's obviously when we do our best work.

Speaker 3:

And I think it's also about really understanding what they're supposed to be doing within their job. It's not about you're getting paid for this many hours. It's like this is what we expect from you, and if you can do that in two hours, I have freelancers who can do the most incredible amount of work in the shortest space of time. And I'm not saying, well, I'm paying you per hour, like I'm not. That's not how it works and it's kind of it's more about understanding what do I need from you? What objectives are we trying to meet for this client or for this project? And then go and do it like that's kind of you know whatever. And I think it's not about what do you need to fill this amount of time. It's more about this is the role you need to fulfill for the company and this is how it connects to the vision for the business and this is how blah, blah, blah, you know, and kind of maybe reshape the way we think about roles as well.

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely, and I think when we're doing that too, we're actually that's better for the business, because at the end of the day, obviously they're achieving the goals. They're achieving the goals and people are happy. We're supporting their lifestyle. That's important. But also I think you know, obviously you can have people in positions for like a year before you realize, hey, they're not.

Speaker 2:

Then the productivity isn't there, or this isn't really working out, whereas if you are focused more on the outcomes, you're going to pick that stuff up earlier and I think it will even change the way that you interview. So you are getting the right people for the right roles and you are picking up if that isn't the right person earlier on and addressing it because you're more focused on the outcomes rather than. Are they checking in at nine o'clock, are they checking out at five, five or longer? Whatever it may be, you know are they?

Speaker 2:

are they online at this time? Like, if you're focused on that stuff, you may actually miss the point and you may actually lose someone who is highly productive, achieves all their goals but just doesn't work in the way that we may traditionally want them to.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I really like that because I think it also brings it back to, you know, the mission of the company, which I do think gets forgotten a bit, especially the larger the company is.

Speaker 3:

Like I think sometimes you can just end up being a cog in a wheel and it's almost like all right, we need to fill that position, and it's kind of like someone. I think if someone really understood, like why their role is important, what it's moving towards for the company, what's expected of them in their role, rather than the amount of hours or whatever that's expected that they would actually feel more connected and probably do a better job anyway, rather than it just being like clock in, clock out, just got to get my salary, whatever. And I just think, yeah, maybe it is again. We're kind of stuck in this industrial revolution like productivity, the more hours you put in, the more things you can get off the belt, or whatever, um, and it's just maybe now looking more at like exactly that what, what is the role and who is the right person for that role? And then what are they bringing to the company and you know all of those sort of things. So I just think it's such an interesting topic I'm a bit obsessed with it, to be honest.

Speaker 2:

Um, if you can't tell, and I just think it really aligns with your business and it really aligns with, like, what we are both interested, which is creating the lifestyle that you love, and you know, the way that your workplace operate is really key to that. If you're in a workplace that doesn't allow you to have the kind of lifestyle you want, then you're not going to be happy, are you? And that's not good for the business, it's not good for you. So I think it all kind of lines up, really, in terms of your business, what we're talking about and really what's happening in the world right now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I'm just really looking forward to seeing, like the, how it kind of grows and develops over the next couple of years, I guess. So, yeah, really cool, really interesting and yeah, I just hope that the world moves a bit forward towards, you know, supporting people as individuals essentially, rather than just cogs in a corporate wheel.

Speaker 2:

And I think, just also seeing that I think, the more you can step back, you actually see that you both have similar goals, whereas sometimes we're trying to force someone to achieve goals in the way that we think they should be achieved, instead of recognizing the key is that we have the same goal. The key is that we're working towards the same goal and the way that we achieve that is actually less important.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's really interesting. I just keep I always chat to people about how they're approaching it because I know quite a few like leaders in business and it's it's just so interesting. Everyone has such a different approach to this, but it does a lot of. It always boils down to actually wanting to give people flexibility. They're just not sure exactly how that looks and like what it, what it can entail. So I think I'm sure systems and solutions and businesses are going to pop up about this over the next couple of years.

Speaker 3:

But I'm just love. I just think it's really interesting and I've been looking forward to seeing how we combat this, because it's not even just about, you know, women needing flexibility. All of these things are coming up now, like about how women's businesses are less funded, like there's way less women that get funding for their companies. Obviously there's a huge thing around child care and how it's just so overpriced and it's just not worth women coming into work half the time. Um, and like, obviously, parental leave and just so many things are coming up now which are great that they're being addressed, and I'm just really looking forward to seeing how this all kind of escalates and grows over the next couple of years.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, it's those big societal issues. And I think the other thing that you highlighted is that change in the style of leadership that we have. You know, because I think traditionally there was a lot of micromanagement, and if we're letting go of that micromanagement not only is obviously good for the employee but, you know, in the context, but it's also really important for the leader, because we talk a lot about having that time to plan and having that time to do all the things that we want to do in our own businesses, and I think that if you have a leadership team that is spending all their time micromanaging, that doesn't free up much time to grow the business. So if we can create good systems around accountability and we can individualize plans, and then we can step back a little bit and have more time to actually dedicate to growing businesses, to planning things, and, yeah, it just frees up a lot of time, doesn't it?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's so interesting and I just think, um, is it? Yeah, it is that. And I think if you think about most companies, I mean obviously there's big, big corporates, but actually the founders if you're looking at an SME, the founder tends to be quite involved in the company still, and they also have visions and dreams and a lifestyle that they want to live, and I think your point is so valid in that and that actually, by releasing them from all this managerial kind of stuff, allows them, exactly as you say, to live life on their terms and to grow the business on their terms.

Speaker 3:

So it's kind of a full circle that will hopefully make everyone a bit happier, a bit more productive and living life more on their terms. So, fingers crossed, this movement will be a positive one. Um, absolutely, for everyone all around.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's the end, isn't it?

Speaker 3:

yeah, we'd love to hear your thoughts, um on this issues and, like anything interesting that you come across about the topic I would love to read.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, if you want to pop us a message on instagram about this, we'd love to hear from you Definitely, and I think also to hear, like, what's important to you, what's important to you in building the lifestyle you want, so you know what's the ideal scenario in a workplace setting for you to achieve those goals would be great to hear.

Speaker 3:

Love. It All right, see you guys next week. See you next week.

Speaker 1:

You're ready to create a life on your terms. Join us every week and make sure to like and subscribe to keep up to date with new episodes. All the links to keep in touch with us are in the bio.

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Christina Gough

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Dr Katie Stirling

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